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Topic: The Eurofighter Typhoon beat the F22 in real tests! Replies: 58 posts
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Author Topic: The Eurofighter Typhoon beat the F22 in real tests!  (Read 25228 times)
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Alan B'Stard M P
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« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2009, 03:18:45 AM »


"Bobs your Uncle " is a very English expression!

Perhaps, "Bobs your Uncle " is a very English expression, but "bob" wasnt "english" - the forum showed him to be located in USA, and a futher check showed he was using computers from Lockheed Martin. Perhaps a ban was to much, he was still interesting, but i doubt he will come back now anyway Smiley


bans are bad news, especially for new sites starting out.  Can't afford to lose any
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« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2009, 07:43:04 AM »

amazing plane!!its so fast and very nice to control by the pilot,its look like an terrible for the others..
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« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2009, 01:20:54 PM »

Here is what i have been saying for years:

Quote
Premier U.S. Fighter Jet Has Major Shortcomings

Washington Post,  July 10, 2009 - The United States' top fighter jet, the Lockheed Martin F-22, has recently required more than 30 hours of maintenance for every hour in the skies, pushing its hourly cost of flying to more than $44,000, a far higher figure than for the warplane it replaces, confidential Pentagon test results show.

The aircraft's radar-absorbing metallic skin is the principal cause of its maintenance troubles, with unexpected shortcomings -- such as vulnerability to rain and other abrasion -- challenging Air Force and contractor technicians since the mid-1990s, according to Pentagon officials, internal documents and a former engineer.

While most aircraft fleets become easier and less costly to repair as they mature, key maintenance trends for the F-22 have been negative in recent years, and on average from October last year to this May, just 55 percent of the deployed F-22 fleet has been available to fulfill missions guarding U.S. airspace, the Defense Department acknowledged this week. The F-22 has never been flown over Iraq or Afghanistan.

Sensitive information about troubles with the nation's foremost air-defense fighter is emerging in the midst of a fight between the Obama administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress over whether the program should be halted next year at 187 planes, far short of what the Air Force and the F-22's contractors around the country had anticipated.

"It is a disgrace that you can fly a plane [an average of] only 1.7 hours before it gets a critical failure" that jeopardizes success of the aircraft's mission, said a Defense Department critic of the plane who is not authorized to speak on the record. Other skeptics inside the Pentagon note that the planes, designed 30 years ago to combat a Cold War adversary, have cost an average of $350 million apiece and say they are not a priority in the age of small wars and terrorist threats.

But other defense officials -- reflecting sharp divisions inside the Pentagon about the wisdom of ending one of the largest arms programs in U.S. history -- emphasize the plane's unsurpassed flying abilities, express renewed optimism that the troubles will abate and say the plane is worth the unexpected costs.

Votes by the House and Senate armed services committees last month to spend $369 million to $1.75 billion more to keep the F-22 production line open were propelled by mixed messages from the Air Force -- including a quiet campaign for the plane that includes snazzy new Lockheed videos for key lawmakers -- and intense political support from states where the F-22's components are made. The full House ratified the vote on June 25, and the Senate is scheduled to begin consideration of F-22 spending Monday.

After deciding to cancel the program, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates called the $65 billion fleet a "niche silver-bullet solution" to a major aerial war threat that remains distant. He described the House's decision as "a big problem" and has promised to urge President Obama to veto the military spending bill if the full Senate retains F-22 funding.

The administration's position is supported by military reform groups that have long criticized what they consider to be poor procurement practices surrounding the F-22, and by former senior Pentagon officials such as Thomas Christie, the top weapons testing expert from 2001 to 2005. Christie says that because of the plane's huge costs, the Air Force lacks money to modernize its other forces adequately and has "embarked on what we used to call unilateral disarmament."

David G. Ahern, a senior Pentagon procurement official who helps oversee the F-22 program, said in an interview that "I think we've executed very well," and attributed its troubles mostly to the challenge of meeting ambitious goals with unstable funding.

A spokeswoman for Lockheed added that the F-22 has "unmatched capabilities, sustainability and affordability" and that any problems are being resolved in close coordination with the Air Force.

'Cancellation-Proof'

Designed during the early 1980s to ensure long-term American military dominance of the skies, the F-22 was conceived to win dogfights with advanced Soviet fighters that Russia is still trying to develop.

Lt. Gen. Harry M. Wyatt III, director of the Air National Guard, said in a letter this week to  Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) that he likes the F-22 because its speed and electronics enable it to handle "a full spectrum of threats" that current defensive aircraft "are not capable of addressing." "There is really no comparison to the F-22," said Air Force Maj. David Skalicky, a 32-year-old former F-15 pilot who now shows off the F-22's impressive maneuverability at air shows. Citing the critical help provided by its computers in flying radical angles of attack and tight turns, he said "it is one of the easiest planes to fly, from the pilot's perspective."

Its troubles have been detailed in dozens of Government Accountability Office reports and Pentagon audits. But Pierre Sprey, a key designer in the 1970s and 1980s of the F-16 and A-10 warplanes, said that from the beginning, the Air Force designed it to be "too big to fail, that is, to be cancellation-proof."

Lockheed farmed out more than 1,000 subcontracts to vendors in more than 40 states, and Sprey -- now a prominent critic of the plane -- said that by the time skeptics "could point out the failed tests, the combat flaws, and the exploding costs, most congressmen were already defending their subcontractors' " revenues.

John Hamre, the Pentagon's comptroller from 1993 to 1997, says the department approved the plane with a budget it knew was too low because projecting the real costs would have been politically unpalatable on Capitol Hill.

"We knew that the F-22 was going to cost more than the Air Force thought it was going to cost and we budgeted the lower number, and I was there," Hamre told the Senate Armed Services Committee in April. "I'm not proud of it," Hamre added in a recent interview.

When limited production began in 2001, the plane was "substantially behind its plan to achieve reliability goals," the GAO said in a report the following year. Structural problems that turned up in subsequent testing forced retrofits to the frame and changes in the fuel flow. Computer flaws, combined with defective software diagnostics, forced the frequent retesting of millions of lines of code, said two Defense officials with access to internal reports.

Skin problems -- often requiring re-gluing small surfaces that can take more than a day to dry -- helped force more frequent and time-consuming repairs, according to the confidential data drawn from tests conducted by the Pentagon's independent Office of Operational Test and Evaluation between 2004 and 2008.

Over the four-year period, the F-22's average maintenance time per hour of flight grew from 20 hours to 34, with skin repairs accounting for more than half of that time -- and more than half the hourly flying costs -- last year, according to the test and evaluation office.

The Air Force says the F-22 cost $44,259 per flying hour in 2008; the Office of the Secretary of Defense said the figure was $49,808. The F-15, the F-22's predecessor, has a fleet average cost of $30,818.

'Compromises'

Darrol Olsen, a specialist in stealth coatings who worked at Lockheed's testing laboratory in Marietta, Ga., from 1995 to 1999, said the current troubles are unsurprising. In a lawsuit filed under seal in 2007, he charged the company with violating the False Claims Act for ordering and using coatings that it knew were defective while hiding the failings from the Air Force.

He has cited a July 1998 report that said test results "yield the same problems as documented previously" in the skin's quality and durability, and another in December that year saying, "Baseline coatings failed." A Lockheed briefing that September assured the Air Force that the effort was "meeting requirements with optimized products."

"When I got into this thing . . . I could not believe the compromises" made by Lockheed to meet the Air Force's request for quick results, said Olsen, who had a top-secret clearance. "I suggested we go to the Air Force and tell them we had some difficulties . . . and they would not do that. I was squashed. I knew from the get-go that this material was bad, that this correcting it in the field was never going to work."

Olsen, who said Lockheed fired him over a medical leave, heard from colleagues as recently as 2005 that problems persisted with coatings and radar absorbing materials in the plane's skin, including what one described as vulnerability to rain. Invited to join his lawsuit, the Justice Department filed a court notice last month saying it was not doing so "at this time" -- a term that means it is still investigating the matter, according to a department spokesman.

Ahern said the Pentagon could not comment on the allegations. Lockheed spokeswoman Mary Jo Polidore said that "the issues raised in the complaint are at least 10 years old," and that the plane meets or exceeds requirements established by the Air Force. "We deny Mr. Olsen's allegations and will vigorously defend this matter."

There have been other legal complications. In late 2005, Boeing learned of defects in titanium booms connecting the wings to the plane, which the company, in a subsequent lawsuit against its supplier, said posed the risk of "catastrophic loss of the aircraft." But rather than shut down the production line -- an act that would have incurred large Air Force penalties -- Boeing reached an accord with the Air Force to resolve the problem through increased inspections over the life of the fleet, with expenses to be mostly paid by the Air Force.

Sprey said engineers who worked on it told him that because of Lockheed's use of hundreds of subcontractors, quality control was so poor that workers had to create a "shim line" at the Georgia plant where they retooled badly designed or poorly manufactured components. "Each plane wound up with all these hand-fitted parts that caused huge fits in maintenance," he said. "They were not interchangeable."

Polidore confirmed that some early parts required modifications but denied that such a shim line existed and said "our supplier base is the best in the industry."

The plane's million-dollar radar-absorbing canopy has also caused problems, with a stuck hatch imprisoning a pilot for hours in 2006 and engineers unable to extend the canopy's lifespan beyond about 18 months of flying time. It delaminates, "loses its strength and finish," said an official privy to Air Force data.

In the interview, Ahern and Air Force Gen. C.D. Moore confirmed that canopy visibility has been declining more rapidly than expected, with brown spots and peeling forcing $120,000 refurbishments at 331 hours of flying time, on average, instead of the stipulated 800 hours.

There has been some gradual progress. At the plane's first operational flight test in September 2004, it fully met two of 22 key requirements and had a total of 351 deficiencies; in 2006, it fully met five; in 2008, when squadrons were deployed at six U.S. bases, it fully met seven.

"It flunked on suitability measures -- availability, reliability, and maintenance," said Christie about the first of those tests. "There was no consequence. It did not faze anybody who was in the decision loop" for approving the plane's full production. This outcome was hardly unique, Christie adds. During his tenure in the job from 2001 to 2005, "16 or 17 major weapons systems flunked" during initial operational tests, and "not one was stopped as a result."

"I don't accept that this is still early in the program," Christie said, explaining that he does not recall a plane with such a low capability to fulfill its mission due to maintenance problems at this point in its tenure as the F-22. The Pentagon said 64 percent of the fleet is currently "mission capable." After four years of rigorous testing and operations, "the trends are not good," he added.

Pentagon officials respond that measuring hourly flying costs for aircraft fleets that have not reached 100,000 flying hours is problematic, because sorties become more frequent after that point; Ahern also said some improvements have been made since the 2008 testing, and added: "We're going to get better." He said the F-22s are on track to meet all of what the Air Force calls its KPP -- key performance parameters -- by next year.

But last Nov. 20, John J. Young Jr., who was then undersecretary of defense and Ahern's boss, said that officials continue to struggle with the F-22's skin. "There's clearly work that needs to be done there to make that airplane both capable and affordable to operate," he said.

When Gates decided this spring to spend $785 million on four more planes and then end production of the F-22, he also kept alive an $8 billion improvement effort. It will, among other things, give F-22 pilots the ability to communicate with other types of warplanes; it currently is the only such warplane to lack that capability.

The cancellation decision got public support from the Air Force's top two civilian and military leaders, who said the F-22 was not a top priority in a constrained budget. But the leaders' message was muddied in a June 9 letter from Air Combat Cmdr. John D.W. Corley to Chambliss that said halting production would put "execution of our current national military strategy at high risk in the near to mid-term." The right size for the fleet, he said, is 381.

Fatal Test Flight

One of the last four planes Gates supported buying is meant to replace an F-22 that crashed during a test flight north of Los Angeles on March 25, during his review of the program. The Air Force has declined to discuss the cause, but a classified internal accident report completed the following month states that the plane flew into the ground after poorly executing a high-speed run with its weapons-bay doors open, according to three government officials familiar with its contents. The Lockheed test pilot died.

Several sources said the flight was part of a bid to make the F-22 relevant to current conflicts by giving it a capability to conduct precision bombing raids, not just aerial dogfights. The Air Force is still probing who should be held accountable for the accident.

Staff writer Ellen Nakashima contributed to this report.
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« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2009, 01:38:51 PM »

Not even John McCain supports the F-22 program:

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WASHINGTON POST (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama and his former Republican White House rival, Senator  John McCain, found common ground on Monday to try and stop efforts in Congress to expand the F-22 fighter jet program.

"As (Defense Secretary Robert) Gates and the military leadership have determined, we do not need these planes," Obama said in a letter to lawmakers that threatened to veto massive legislation containing the $1.75 billion plan for Lochkeed Martin Corp to build seven more aircraft.

"To continue to procure additional F-22s would be to waste valuable resources that should be more usefully employed to provide our troops with the weapons that they actually do need," Obama wrote.

Senator  Carl Levin and McCain, the top Democrat and Republican, respectively, on the Armed Services Committee, offered an amendment to overturn the panel's earlier decision to expand the program beyond 187 planes already budgeted.

McCain acknowledged that he and Levin did not at the moment have enough votes to kill the F-22 expansion. The F-22 program touches most states economically, Levin said, making it important to many members of Congress during a time of recession-fueled job losses nationwide.

"We have to make some tough choices in this budget and other budgets and this is a choice our military is urging us to make," Levin said. "We cannot continue to produce weapons systems forever."

The F-22 is just one of several big-ticket procurement programs facing elimination or cutbacks in the legislation that sets military budget priorities for 2010.

Senate leaders would like to approve the legislation this week.

Gates wants to cut back many of the military's weapons programs and transition from the F-22 to three models of Lockheed's Joint Strike Fighter F-35, co-developed with eight countries and built for export.

House and Senate lawmakers in committee have also voted to put extra money toward an alternate engine for the F-35 to be built by a team from General Electric Co and Rolls-Royce Group Plc.

Obama opposes the second engine but has not issued a veto threat over it.
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« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2009, 09:30:43 AM »

Obama managed to shut down the program

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Senate rejects additional F-22 funding


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Senate voted Tuesday to block expansion of one of the country's most controversial and expensive defense programs, the F-22 fighter jet program.

The vote gave the White House and Pentagon a key victory over congressional supporters of the F-22, many of whom represent states and districts where jobs are tied to the production of the jet.

The vote, which stripped $1.75 billion for an additional seven F-22s from the fiscal year 2010 budget, was a reversal of an earlier Senate committee decision to include money for the program. The change came in a response to strong pressure from President Obama, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and several key senators who argued that the additional planes are not needed or wanted by the military.

The 58-40 vote, which did not break down along typical partisan lines, was the culmination of a classic confrontation between the president and Congress over who is the best judge of the country's military needs.

"At a time when we're fighting two wars and facing a serious deficit, (expanding the F-22) would have been an inexcusable waste of money," Obama said shortly after the vote.

"Every dollar of waste in our defense budget is a dollar we can't spend to support our troops or prepare for future threats or protect the American people."

Under the 2010 budget proposed by Gates, production of the F-22 would be halted at 187 planes. The Pentagon instead wants to produce 500 of the more modern F-35 planes over the next five years and 2,400 over time.

The decision was met with strong opposition in Congress. With the F-22 being manufactured in or getting supplies from 44 different states, the plane gets broad support from congressmen and senators on both sides of the aisle.

One of the leading proponents for keeping the F-22 program is Sen. Saxby Chambliss, R-Georgia, whose state is home to the factory that assembles the jet. On Tuesday, Chambliss defended his support, arguing that Congress should not just rubber stamp spending decisions by the Pentagon.

"Our interest and involvement in these issues is appropriate and not just based on parochial issues," Chambliss said.

Underscoring the drama, Obama threatened to veto the entire defense budget if it included money for the F-22.

Chambliss noted that there has been a "flurry" of lobbying by the White House and Defense Department.

"I've never seen the White House lobby like they've lobbied on this issue," Chambliss said. "It's been unparalleled."

Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, also acknowledged the intensity of the dispute during the final Senate debate.

"This amendment is probably the most impactful amendment that I have seen in this body on almost any issue, much less the issue of defense," McCain said on the Senate floor.

"It really boils down to whether we're going to continue [the] business as usual of once a weapons system gets into full production it never dies, or whether we're going to take the necessary steps to really reform the acquisition process in this country."

The Lockheed Martin jet has never been used in Afghanistan or Iraq, but supporters contend it is needed to fight more sophisticated enemies who might confront the United States in the future, such as China or Russia.

They also note the thousands of jobs that will be lost if the F-22 program is halted.

"We put that many jobs at risk, not because the industry is failing, not because it is a bad piece of aircraft, but because the secretary of defense and the administration have decided this program isn't worthy of our support. So explain to those 90,000 people, once they lose their jobs and get laid off," said Democratic Sen. Christopher Dodd.

The F-22 engine is made in Dodd's home state of Connecticut.

"Terminating production, like closing a base, involves economic loss for communities involved," Levin said. "But we must do so from time to time, and make these difficult decisions based on what is best for the nation and what is best for the men and women of the armed forces."

Gates has maintained that more jobs will be created in F-35 production than will be lost in stopping the F-22. He said 11,000 jobs will be lost by halting the F-22, while it is anticipated that 82,000 jobs will be created by the F-35.


Gates said Monday he'd heard no "substantive" argument for keeping the jet for national security reasons, pointing out that China has no planes that can compete with the more than 1,000 advanced fighter jets the U.S. will have by 2020.

Gates said that the gap between the two countries' aerial arsenals will only widen
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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2009, 10:03:16 AM »

Here is what US Gen. John jumper said after flying the Eurofighter Typhoon:

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“I have flown all the air force jets and none is as good as the Eurofighter,” USAF Chief of Staff General John Jumper said as he climbed out of the cockpit of a German Air Force Eurofighter at Laage air base in Germany"

http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/04farn/sn_072204.pdf - page 11

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« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2009, 01:26:05 PM »

Here is a very good clip that sums up what we have been saying about the F_22 all along:


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHrXTJz3Ph4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHrXTJz3Ph4</a><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvgBbXKL5E" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvgBbXKL5E</a>
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« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2009, 01:35:16 PM »

Here is a 4 page long report about anti-stealth: By Cyrus Mehta and Ardeshir Mehta
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« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2010, 04:18:59 PM »

Latest news about the Eurofighter vs. US fighters:

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Eurofighter Typhoon trounces F-15 in war simulation

www.combataircraft.com - NATO air forces recently carried out several training engagements known as dact, Dissimilar Aircraft Combat Training. These competitions pit pilots in various aircraft against each other to see how the various craft measure up.

In this test case, the Eurofighter Typhoon proved to be far superior to the F-15.

The 111 Squadron of the Spanish Air Force was deployed for training against the 493rd Squadron of the U.S. Air Force. The Spaniards deployed a total of six Eurofighter Typhoons. America sent F-15 variants. The trial took place near Gando Air Base, Gran Canaria. The results were startling.

Two Eurofighters managed to destroy a formation of eight F-15s. The first Eurofighter managed to “shoot down” four F-15s, while the second quickly disabled three.

According to the Eurofighter press office, the Spanish commander of the 111 squad reported that the Eurofighters “enjoyed full control of the engagement,” even though the numerically superior F-15s played the role of attacker.

U.S. Air Force enthusiasts will be quick to point out that the F-15 is an older aircraft—built during the 1980s—and that it would have been surprising if the Typhoon had not proved superior. Had the F-22 Raptor been deployed, the results might have been different.

However, the F-22 is a bit of a non-argument when it comes to the defense of America. Last June, the Senate voted to mothball the F-22 production program. Over $60 billion was spent developing, building and maintaining the 187 planes that have been made. The F-35, America’s next fighter won’t reach full production until 2014.

The reality is that for now, the 614 F-15s (and its 1,262 F-16 siblings) remain the backbone of America’s air defenses. But it is a backbone that is more exposed than most people would admit.


The story is in different versions, also here:

Quote
Eurofighter Typhoon Top Trumps the F-15

www.defencetalk.com/ - During recent exercises, NATO Air Forces carried out several training combat engagements known as DACT, Dissimilar Aircraft Combat Training, involving different types of aircraft. In this situation, where the air dominance is a matter, the Eurofighter Typhoons turned out to be the leading air-to-air fighter jets.

Once again, the outstanding performance of the Eurofighter Typhoon was evident in a dogfight simulation. The 111 Squadron of the Spanish Air Force as well as the 493rd Squadron of the U.S. Air Force were deployed for training in Gando Air Base, Gran Canaria. The Spanish Squadron attended the training with a total of six Eurofighter Typhoons. The U.S. Air Force deployed F-15s.

In an interview on the exercise, Major Juan Balesta, the 41-year old Commander of the 111 Squadron stressed that a two-ship formation of Eurofighters involved in a dogfight simulation “against” the F-15s enjoyed full control of the engagement. The Typhoons managed to smash a formation of eight F-15s which had the role of the attacker with the first Eurofighter jet managing to "shoot down" four F-15 fighter jets. The second Eurofighter managed to disable three F-15 jets.

Eventually the pilots were using the Eurofighter Typhoon to full capacity and taking advantage of its enormous capabilities. Trump that
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« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2010, 05:12:09 PM »

Great plane. Xmm YouTube video do not work.
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« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2010, 12:08:34 AM »

- you just put the "code"  of the Youtube video e.g. "vIvgBbXKL5E" into the youtube tag...
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I am a Czech, but I live in the US (San Francisco)


« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2010, 10:36:03 AM »

Eh, most US fighter planes are shit (except f-16). The US concentrates more on fighter bombers and air-ground support than air to air combat, hence why the JSF was designed from the start to be a STOVL, and why the f-18/f-15 have large bombloads. And the f-22 was a complete failure, and the JSF is headed down the same road.

 I'm more curious how the eurofighter would compete with Russian, Chinese, and Swedish fighters (mig-29 and mig-35, J-11, and Gripen). All of which will have AESA radars, and looking to be the Eurofighter's main competition. I personally prefer the gripen, but i did manage to find some stats off wikipedia (yes, wikipedia), in an article about an Indian fighter jet competition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition

Among the stats: Eurofighter, alongside Gripen, are the only aircraft capable of supercruise

I was surprised by this: Eurofighter is the fastest jet, which is just a smidgeon faster than the Mig-35, which i previously thought was the fastest (If the numbers are to be believed)

The f-16 has the largest range, and the mig-35 the smallest

Eurofighter is the most expensive aircraft, Mig-35 being the cheapest, but i heard the operating costs are lowest for the European jets.

The Eurofighter has the highest service ceiling, with the f-18 having the lowest (no surprise)
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« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2010, 04:01:16 PM »

I'm more curious how the eurofighter would compete with Russian, Chinese, and Swedish fighters (mig-29 and mig-35, J-11, and Gripen). All of which will have AESA radars, and looking to be the Eurofighter's main competition.

Eurofighter will have a new AESA rader, read Press Release from 20.07.2010:

Quote
eurofighter.com - Press Release - Eurofighter and Euroradar to develop latest generation AESA Radar

An innovative cutting edge AESA radar system, reconfirms Eurofighter as the most advanced aircraft available on the market.

Eurofighter GmbH and Euroradar, together with their industrial partners, have begun full scale development of a latest generation Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. The target in-service date for the new radar is 2015 to meet the requirements of Eurofighter Partner Nations and export customers.

Eurofighter CEO Enzo Casolini said of the decision “This is an important step in the Eurofighter programme and will ensure that Typhoon continues to lead the way as the world’s best new generation multi-role combat aircraft. In consultation with our Core Nation customers we can offer an AESA capability that far exceeds any other radar available. This capability will mean that Eurofighter is in the best possible position when offering Typhoon to the export market. The in-service date means we are perfectly positioned to respond to the complex and demanding requirements of the air forces”.

The decision means that Eurofighter will further develop the capability of the Typhoon aircraft to enhance its radar performance, building on preliminary development and flight testing undertaken since 2007. Although the current Mechanically Scanned (M-Scan) radar is considered to be best in class, AESA technology will see the Typhoon's radar capabilities developed even further. The planned AESA radar will offer a variety of benefits over M-Scan, including increased detection and tracking ranges, advanced air-to-surface capability and enhanced electronic protection measures.

The new radar will retain the key features of the existing Captor radar architecture in order to exploit the maturity of the current system and will use latest generation technology to provide a full complement of air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. The large array can be accommodated easily in the Typhoon’s radome and, being fitted on a repositioner, will provide an extremely wide field of regard. This will see Typhoon's combat effectiveness enhanced even further, allowing the Typhoon to outperform any other aircraft available on the market. The radar will offer customers the freedom to retrofit their existing Typhoons when required. The radar will have significant growth potential and both existing and new customers will be able to participate in tailoring the radar to meet their individual operational requirements.

Euroradar is a multi-national consortium lead by SELEX Galileo, a Finmeccanica Company, alongside EADS Defence Electronics and Indra. Euroradar has delivered over 250 Captor mechanically scanned radars into the Typhoon programme to date and this experience will ensure a timely and smooth transition to AESA.

I personally prefer the gripen, but i did manage to find some stats off wikipedia (yes, wikipedia), in an article about an Indian fighter jet competition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition

Among the stats: Eurofighter, alongside Gripen, are the only aircraft capable of supercruise

It seems 2 planes are left to win the Indian competion:

Quote
MRCA narrowed to Eurofighter and Rafale: IAF

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After exhaustive trials of six fighter jets, Indian Air Force (IAF) has made its choice clear to the Government on the kind of fighter jets needed. Frontrunners for the force are French fighter Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon built by the European consortium. Bernhard Gerwert, Chief, EADS, says “If you are taking into account the portfolio of EADS we can bring the bridge between civil aviation and military aviation.” But the Americans and Russians have lost out. Boeing’s F18 no longer a frontrunner and Sweden’s Gripen too falling off the Indian radar.

Despite MiG 35s big thunder, its engine failing to impress while the F-16, according to the IAF has no future. Another reason favouring Rafale and Eurofighter is political. Thomas Matussek, German Ambassador, “We regard India as a strategic security partner and this is why we do not insist on an end user monitoring agreement period.” So when the mother of all defence deals is signed for the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft either Rafale or the Eurofighter will fly away with the Rs 42,000 crore deal.
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« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2010, 07:49:41 PM »

Good news, they are going for thrust-vectoring technology now:

Quote
Eurojet pushes thrust-vectoring technology for Typhoon



Andrew Doyle - flightglobal.com - Think about thrust vectoring and the image that probably springs to mind is that of an experimental fighter wowing the crowds at an air show, as the pilot pulls off seemingly impossible post-stall manoeuvres in an imaginary dogfight.

This is a pre-conception that Eurofighter Typhoon engine supplier Eurojet is attempting to dispel as it prepares to begin briefing the aircraft's current and prospective customer nations on the real-world benefits it envisages the technology could deliver to their air forces. The message is that thrust vectoring is about more than just agility.

Having demonstrated the mechanics of the concept in extensive benchtests, the engine consortium is trying to secure funds to fly its thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) on a flight demonstrator. This, it believes, would provide data to back up its claims that TVN could reduce fuel burn on a typical Typhoon mission by up to 5%, as well as increase available thrust in supercruise by up to 7% and take-off thrust by 2%.

"Previously thrust vectoring has always been about things that will make the pilot smile," says Eurojet technical director Matt Price. "That's fantastic, but certainly in this application it's a pretty agile aircraft to begin with. While thrust vectoring still offers operational advantages, we have to look at lifecycle costs as well. The business that we're in is that we have to hit both those things together."

INTEGRATION

The proposal is to integrate a thrust vectoring capability with the twin-engined Typhoon's digital flight-control system so that it effectively functions as an additional control surface.

Eurojet partner ITP of Spain is responsible for the design of the EJ200's TVN, and has attempted to optimise the device for simplicity of operation while adding as little weight as possible (about 40kg/88lb per engine). The TVN is capable of varying the throat and exit areas independently and has a "fail-safe" mode, meaning that in the event of a loss of hydraulic pressure the nozzle closes to a position that enables the engine to deliver full dry thrust if required.

"Recognising that the convergent-divergent nozzle was one of the key competencies ITP started with, it was a very natural thing for them to look into how they could advance - from a technology point of view - their main part of the EJ200," says Price.

"Actually, relative to the existing actuation system, the design in today's nozzle lends itself quite well to not really needing huge changes to get to a thrust vectoring nozzle," he adds. "ITP I think came up with a very good solution on today's engine which means, for example, we don't need to add any more actuators to go into a thrust vectoring nozzle."

Salvador Costa Krämer, Eurofighter product manager for Tranche 3 production, Meteor integration and new business, says thrust vectoring would bring improvements to the capabilities of the Typhoon as an air-to-surface weapons delivery platform.
"It is not possible [to do this] for the existing nozzle, which has a fixed schedule between A8 and A9, optimised for certain conditions only," says Sterr. "With the TVN you can reduce the fuel burn and life cycle costs as well, in certain parts of the envelope," he adds.

In the standard EJ200 a cam controls how the throat and exit areas are adjusted relative to each other, but in the TVN the exit can be ovalised and therefore varied independently from the throat, using the same actuators that are required to redirect the thrust. "You get this flexibility almost for free," says Sterr.

The result is better propulsive efficiency, which in turn could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by "round about 3-5%".

Price adds: "At a given thrust, the engine ends up working less hard, the temperatures go down, and life goes up. That's a really strong life-cycle cost driver. We're very focused on lifecycle cost advantages and aerobatic/aerodynamic effects too. Both are attractive for future customers.

 "The neat thing from a gas turbine point of view is that the rest of the engine doesn't see [the thrust vectoring] - you get it for free. It's just the nozzle. The rest of the engine isn't working any harder."

"There was a very clear [supersonic interceptor] mission for which the aircraft was designed, and these capabilities are already delivered to the customer," he says. "Now we are facing a different ball game, which is to adapt this weapon system platform to a number of new, different roles."

HIGH SPEED

Costa Krämer says that in terms of thrust vectoring, "most operationally significant is the speed that it gives you in supercruise, because obviously the pilots are very keen on low observability at high speed. This is really an immediate operational advantage. This number - 7% more thrust in supercruise - is quite a remarkable achievement."

The Typhoon is designed to provide the pilot with "care free" engine handling to reduce workload, and this would not change with the introduction of thrust vectoring, says Eurojet engineering director Wolfgang Sterr. The TVN has several degrees of freedom, enabling it to deliver control forces in pitch and yaw, while optimising the throat ("A8") and exit ("A9") areas to suit flight conditions, for example in supersonic cruise where a divergent configuration is required to accelerate the gas flow for increased thrust.



The "balanced beam" design of the TVN enables weight to be minimised as there are "forces working against each other so the actuator forces are quite low", says Sterr.

Benchtesting of the TVN began in the late-1990s and was used to demonstrate more extreme degrees of vectoring than are envisaged for the Typhoon.

"This gives us a lot of confidence that the production variant that we might consider is low-risk," says Price.

Changes to the EJ200 required for thrust vectoring are limited to the introduction of additional software into the digital engine control and monitoring unit (DECMU) and a high-power hydraulic pump for the actuation system.

"Actuator demand is coming from the aircraft flight-control system, and the actuator control is within the DECMU, so obviously there must be an interface," says Robert Osterhuber, EADS Military Air Systems head of flight control and the Eurofighter partner company's project leader for Typhoon thrust vectoring. "This interface is already there, but it needs to be extended," he says.

REDUNDANCY

Osterhuber points out that an extra control surface means additional redundancy in the event of the aircraft sustaining damage during combat. For example, the Typhoon has two pitch effectors (its canards and the wing trailing edge), but the TVNs provide a third.

"If you lose one [pitch effector], you have two surfaces left to take over the required moment," he says. This function would be integrated with the flight-control system and therefore fully automated.

A further safety boost would be increased controllability at low speeds such as during the landing approach, particularly during gust conditions. This improved handling would also enhance the ability of the Typhoon to "bring back" asymmetric weapons loads, or even take-off with a single stand-off weapon such as the MBDA Storm Shadow.

Thrust vectoring could in addition be used to reduce approach speed, opening the door to a potential naval version of the Typhoon, which has attracted the attention of at least one potential export customer, according to Costa Krämer.

A spin-off of using the TVN as a control surface is that thrust vectoring can be used to trim the aircraft and "unload" the flight- control surfaces, thereby reducing drag and/or increasing lift. The conventional control surfaces are meanwhile "liberated" from their role as trim devices and can be used to enhance manoeuvrability.

In supersonic flight, even small flap deflections can cause large amounts of drag.

"If you have thrust vectoring, you can put your aerodynamic surfaces in the best position to give optimum lift and drag, because you do not need to trim the aircraft with aerodynamic surfaces," says Osterhuber.

TRIM-DRAG REDUCTION

The TVN's ability to enable the engine to produce thrust more efficiently, coupled with the trim-drag reduction, results in a "double win", says Eurojet's Price.

He says the software control laws for the TVN are "relatively simple on our side, and we've worked with Robert and his team at EADS to understand how they would work together from a control logic point of view".

EADS has system design responsibility for the Typhoon's flight-control system, while Alenia is responsible for engine integration.

The capability of the TVN would be constrained to avoid the need for structural changes to the airframe or engine, allowing it to be retrofitted to current-standard EJ200s in a "theoretically simple" way, says Price. The engines fitted to Tranche 1 Typhoons would however require a new DECMU.

Thrust vectoring could bring a range of additional benefits to the Typhoon depending on the flight regime. Below around 300kt (555km/h), where the aircraft's flight-control surfaces have limited effect due to low aerodynamic pressure, it can provide enhanced manoeuvrability. At higher speeds, the ability to modify the size and shape of the engine nozzles brings an increase in net thrust.

"There are benefits all over the place," says Eurojet's Sterr. "You can reduce your take-off distances considerably because you are able to rotate the aircraft much earlier with thrust vectoring to generate the lift. You can't generate a moment without thrust vectoring to rotate earlier."
A further safety boost would be increased controllability at low speeds such as during the landing approach, particularly during gust conditions. This improved handling would also enhance the ability of the Typhoon to "bring back" asymmetric weapons loads, or even take-off with a single stand-off weapon such as the MBDA Storm Shadow.

Thrust vectoring could in addition be used to reduce approach speed, opening the door to a potential naval version of the Typhoon, which has attracted the attention of at least one potential export customer, according to Costa Krämer.

A spin-off of using the TVN as a control surface is that thrust vectoring can be used to trim the aircraft and "unload" the flight- control surfaces, thereby reducing drag and/or increasing lift. The conventional control surfaces are meanwhile "liberated" from their role as trim devices and can be used to enhance manoeuvrability.

In supersonic flight, even small flap deflections can cause large amounts of drag.

"If you have thrust vectoring, you can put your aerodynamic surfaces in the best position to give optimum lift and drag, because you do not need to trim the aircraft with aerodynamic surfaces," says Osterhuber.

TRIM-DRAG REDUCTION

The TVN's ability to enable the engine to produce thrust more efficiently, coupled with the trim-drag reduction, results in a "double win", says Eurojet's Price.

He says the software control laws for the TVN are "relatively simple on our side, and we've worked with Robert and his team at EADS to understand how they would work together from a control logic point of view".

EADS has system design responsibility for the Typhoon's flight-control system, while Alenia is responsible for engine integration.

The capability of the TVN would be constrained to avoid the need for structural changes to the airframe or engine, allowing it to be retrofitted to current-standard EJ200s in a "theoretically simple" way, says Price. The engines fitted to Tranche 1 Typhoons would however require a new DECMU.


Thrust vectoring could bring a range of additional benefits to the Typhoon depending on the flight regime. Below around 300kt (555km/h), where the aircraft's flight-control surfaces have limited effect due to low aerodynamic pressure, it can provide enhanced manoeuvrability. At higher speeds, the ability to modify the size and shape of the engine nozzles brings an increase in net thrust.

"There are benefits all over the place," says Eurojet's Sterr. "You can reduce your take-off distances considerably because you are able to rotate the aircraft much earlier with thrust vectoring to generate the lift. You can't generate a moment without thrust vectoring to rotate earlier."
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